Thursday, January 28, 2010

Thursday January 28th by Nicole

Today's readings are taken from Job 32:1-34:37

I am having trouble I guess you would say understanding the book of Job. I understand it, I mean what happened and why, but I'm confused about Job's responses and his friends' responses. At times I think that Job is stepping over the line and isn't being that faithful. To me he appears to be accusing God, so many of you and other people say he was faithful and true, maybe I'm just reading into it wrong? I know this was the other day's reading but in 30:20-22 he says God has turned on him, attacked him, tossed him about in the storm. That to me doesn't sound like someone who is being faithful. I know none of us are perfect, but that's where I'm struggling I think. Job is painted as some awesome saint who doesn't accuse or say a bad word against God, but here he has.

Anyway, on to today's. They introduce us to Elihu, a younger man who was listening to the other 3 friends talk and thinks has a wiser insight to why things have happened than Job's friends. I won't try to delve into it because I don't really understand it, so I'm looking forward to your insights!

One thing I have been thinking of though is a song called "Before the Morning" by Josh Wilson. You can watch a video about why he wrote the song. Its very very moving and encouraging and to me is about the faithfulness that we should have when faced with adversity. I especially love the verse about life not being a snapshot, I think that is what is hard about Job, his friends and even Job only saw a snapshot, they didn't know what was going on behind the scenes or what would happen which is why they responded the way they did.

Here are the lyrics

Do you wonder why you have to
Feel the things that hurt you
If there’s a God who loves you where is He now

Maybe there are things you can’t see

And all those things are happening
To bring a better ending
Someday somehow you’ll see you’ll see
Would you dare would you dare to believe

That you still have a reason to sing

Cause the pain that you’ve been feeling

It can’t compare to the joy that’s coming
So hold on you gotta wait for the light
Press on and just fight the good fight
Cause the pain that you’ve been feeling

It’s just the dark before the morning
My friend you know how this all ends

You know where you’re going

You just don’t know how you’ll get there

So say a prayer

And hold on cause there’s good for those who love God

But life is not a snapshot

It might take a little time but you’ll see the bigger picture

Once you feel the weight of glory

All your pain will fade to memory

It’s just the hurt before the healing
Oh the pain that you’ve been feeling
It’s just the dark before the morning


Tomorrow's reading are Job 35-37. Click here to read online.

17 comments:

Miriam said...

I think that there is a lot about the book of Job that can be very confusing. Here's the gist of it as I see it - Job's friends are saying that God only punishes people for wickedness and blesses them for righteousness. If that's true, then Job must have done something awful to deserve this punishment from God. Job is saying he hasn't done anything to deserve this and he wants to present himself before God and plead his case. He does question, certainly - he is saying that God is inflicting these things on him, and that is true. I don't believe it is wrong for us to question or to state the truth. BUT... and this is a big but... Job never curses God, or turns his back on him. He never rejects God or denies that he is the All-Powerful One who rules over heaven and earth and everything in them. God has big shoulders. He can take it when we question him or even accuse him, as long as we're still trusting and obeying, not cursing him or turning away. Remember the verse "Though he slay me; yet will I hope in Him." (13:15a)
That's my take on it... I hope it helps. If I'm not looking at it correctly, I welcome the comments of others.

Kristi said...

I pretty much agree with Miriam's take on it.

Job is in deep suffering and he never curses God, or allows His faith to be waivered. He only speaks of what he believes God has done to him, and says that it's unjust. He claims that he has done nothing to deserve this kind of punishment while wicked men go unpunished. He is just stating how he feels about what God has done to him, and he wants God to give him answers and be the final "judge" so to speak and he wants his prosecuter to list the reasons for this "case" that has been brought against him. He just wants understading.

Luckily for him, he gets it from Elihu now in today and tomorrow's chapters. Elihu is the younger of all these men, and he holds his words and lets these elders talk, as they are supposed to be the wiser one's. But the moment that he sees that they are out of answers, and are not speaking anymore, he steps in. He tells them that why he hasn't spoken yet, and tells them that he is angry and can't hold it in any longer(32:19). He is upset with the complaining attitude that he has toward his suffering, and the hostile attitude he has toward God's judgment. He tells him that God doesn't have to answer to men (33:13) but that He does reveal Himself through dreams and visions(33:15,16)pain and suffering(33:19-22)and angelic beings(33:23). He tells him that when a man responds favorably to his suffering, God restores him(33:25-28).

He goes on to answer to two arguments crucial to Job's position. First, he answers that God could not be falsely afflicting an innocent man because of His absolute sovereignty(34:13-15)and omniscience(34:21-28)God is always just. He's basically saying, that God did not and does not make a mistake, and Job needs to come to terms with that. Secondly, he says that neither sin nor righteousness cause any change in God (35:5-7). He also goes on to tell Job that he has denied the teaching value of suffering(35:11). This is one that I think we a christians also have a hard time remembering. When we, or someone else is going through a trial, we often wonder what we're being punished for, or we judge someone else, thinking God is punishing them, and we forget that some trials are for God to teach us things and for us to learn and grow. Lastly, Elihu tells Job that his prayers are not being answered because they are in vain(35:13). I know we haven't read that yet, but it's relevant so I wanted to add it.

This passage shows that wisdom doesn't neccesarily come with age. Elihu was much younger than these men, and he had much more sense and discernment of the situation than they did. We get wisdom from God, not from age. Being in God's Word, rightly dividing the Word of truth(2 Tim. 2:15), studying to show thyself approved(2 Timothy 2:15), and fervent prayer(James 5:16)(1 Thess. 5:17), help us to receive wisdom through the Holy Spirit.

Mrs.Oz said...

Job has had to listen to men give their judgemnt of why Job is going through what he is going through. Elihu is the most arrogant of them all. Like the other men he see's many things properly about God but his head is swelled with self-importance.
Before I go on though I want to say that getting the whole response of Job and his seemingly valid frustration with God is so very hard for us. It is tough for us to imagine coming home from the store perhaps and seeing our house burned to the ground, hearing our children have all died in a car accident while we were gone, hearing that the banks have collapsed and all our assets are gone and then soon after being struck with the most dreadful pain and hanging by a thread to our very life in a time of now pain killers or anything. We just cannot get the sudden depravation of Job's experience. It would seem so logical to say "hey, God, what have you done?" because it would seem such a divine judgement. What are the chances of these things happening all at once except from the very hand of God. Job knows he has lived uprightly and his conscience is clear before his maker (in ch 31 he states "If I...then this" which was a form of court procedure protocol for the nations around him at the time and it basically was a way to plead your case that if you had been wrong in this way may this curse happen to you..said of yourself). So, Job's only other conclusion is that God has now considered him an enemy or turned away from Him. We critisize this but were we there, we would probably have that emotional reaction. We have to be gracious to Job to see that. His reaction is just that, his emotional human response. It is not right but God is going to show him that by pointing Job to the wisdom of God and that is going to be the thing that opens Job's eyes and causes him to repent. So, I say all that to say Nicole that you are right in your assesment of Job. He will be called to account for this to the Almighty. Yet, like a wise loving Father, God knows and understands why he has these emotions and he knows they are pure and he knows that in his feeling rejected by God he is not rejecting God also.

Mrs.Oz said...

(had to do two parts...I maxed out the comments html! LOL!)
Now, on to Elihu...
John MacArthurs commentary of the text is quite different. He says that Elihu wants to say what he thinks and claims it is from the inspiration of God (v.8). He is chiding Job for his pride,(vv 1-7), his complaints against God (vv. 8-11) and then gives his own answers (vv 12-33) all in ch 33. He proudly challenges the older men to take him on after he gives his piece (vs.5) He misquotes Job in many places.
"Elihu addresseed Job and his accusers. His approach was to quote Job directly, then respond to his complaints, but at times he misinterpreted Job's remarks, and at other times he put the words of the accusers in Job's mouth. The most obvious example of the latter wrongdoing was in saying that Job claimed to be sinlessly perfect (v.6). Job never claimed that; in fact, Job acknowledged his sin (7:21; 13:26)." John MacAruthur (commentary)
Elihu does the same thing as the other men, only in a new way. He claims he has the answer and the wisdom Job needs. He judges him harshly and unwisely twists Jobs words. He is arrogant and young. Though wisdom can be found more in the young than the old, though much of what he said is true (as was the case with the three other men), he still is of no help to Job.
The one verse I see that backs up the attitude of Elihu and is a red flag is found in 33:33 "Keep silent, and I will teach you wisdom."
OOOOOOHHHH....man. Look out mister. That is not your place. Only God can teach us wisdom and he is going to speak up soon and make that point.
"Elihu coldly gave 3 reasons why Job's prayers had not been heard; pride (vv 10,12), wrong motives (v.13), and lack of patient trust (v14). Again, all this theoretical talk missed Job's predicament completely because he was righteous. Elihu was no more help than the other counselors." John MacArthur

I think all these men are a great lessen to us in the body of Christ. We can be so right but we cannot be God. We do not have his wisdom to give to a man in his moment of need. We cannot see his heart, only God can. We cannot be his judge and counselor, only God can. There is one thing these men should have done and one thing only. THey should have knelt and prayed with their brother that God would show him the wisdom of His way in this trial and that Job's eyes would be open to see that so it would be the help he so needed.

Mrs.Oz said...

and thank you Nicole for sharing that video...what a reminder!

If anything Job reminds us that man's perfect knowlege (for Elihu makes a crazy outrageous statement we will se tomorrow in 36:4 "For truly my words are not false; One who is perfect in knowledge is with you.") is NOT the final say on what God is doing in our lives.
Oh, that we would be more focused on the growth of our faith and others faith than on being a voice of God. We miss out and we fill our heads and others heads when God seems to want us to empty them out of our knowlege so He can fill it with wisdom from HIM.

Kristi said...

I totally dissagree. Elihu was a lot of help to Job and was much wiser than the other three. He's not perfect, and misread some things Job said, but he did help. People can teach others wisdom, through the help of the Holy Spirit. Very often times God uses people to speak His words to others. True understanding of that Wisdom only comes from God, but people can relay the message. If he was so arrogant, he would have spoke up much sooner! There is NOTHING wrong with being passionate about one's faith and sharing it with others. Sometimes we need to be put in our place...I'm thankful that our Pastor will privately speak to us and be honest and truthful with us when we are in need of it!

Elihu's response leads to God putting Job in his place in a couple more chapters. I think Job is wonderful, and I don't find any fault in him here...I respectfully look up to him and hold him as a great example of faithfulness...but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have done things a little differently either. I would not have done any better in the situation, I seriously doubt that I would even do as good as Job did, but he did say things and look at things in a way that weren't true or right.

Mrs.Oz said...

there was one thing Job needed and that was for God to open his eyes and to instruct him in the things he declared but did not understand, things too wonderful for Him (or any of us) 42:3
God met his need:
"I will ask You, and You will instruct me. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You;
THEREFORE I retract,
And I repent in dust and ashes."42:5

Mrs.Oz said...

Just as with the other men, there were great truths in the speaches of the men. We know that what Elihu said had the most truth in it of all the men because God does not include him in the shame to the other men at the end of the book. My point was not in the truth of his words or how God used them but in his young arrogant attitude. He is harder on Job than the others and proud.
I like that Elihu reminds Job that since man can't explain God, he ought to be silent and not contend with God. John MacArthur says "What a man has to say against God's plans is not worthy to utter and could bring judgement" Elihu had pointed both Job and the reader to God who was ready at last to speak."
God used all the words of these men but He wanted to open Job's eyes himself and we see that is what happens.
I like what you said Kristi about God using others through the Holy Spirit in our lives. Absolutely.
God knows just where our faith needs to be touched however where men do not and he will use them despite their sinful approaches but the work of heart belongs to Him alone and the worship and repentance come from His opening of the eyes.

Mrs.Oz said...

I've been pondering your point of why he waited. I agree it was wise to wait (unless it was just out of knowing his place that he waited) and it must have been hard sitting and listening to these men rant when he was convicted of a bigger truth.
I want to say too that I think it's normal that we disagree on our perceptions in this reading. Job is one of the books that many Christians disagree on and discuss. I enjoy reading your thoughts and they help me think more and more into it. You have a lot of good perspectives to give.
I love hearing others toughts and going back to the passage and the commentaries over and over. I'm also going to listen to John Piper's sermons on Job. But for now...alas..i must go complete the not so noble task of scrubbing the bathrooms.

Mrs.Oz said...

I started housework and listening to this and am all ready amazed.
Kristilea, you are on to something!
So glad you stirred me to keep searching. :)
This why I love discussion because God is faithful to point us in many places to correct our thinking and fine tune his truth through many means.
John Piper has a very high view of Elihu in this sermon on the exact passage we are in. He addresses the fact that many commentators have given him a bad rap for his arrogance but he things that he was on to the very correct thoughts of God. He even says that Elihu says half of what Job needs and God comes in to finish it. Like I was noticing that he is not shamed in the end, that is an important point.
The sermon is helping me understand all of this better so I'm linking it. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/52/499_Job_Rebuked_in_Suffering/
...back to housework...and listening.

Nicole said...

The comments that I read about Elihu painted him in a bad light also. I was confused Kristi when I saw you saying nice things about him. I do get that some of what he was saying was good and in the right direction, but I think the main problem that people have with him is his pride, know-it-all attitude etc?
Thanks everyone for your thoughts and explanations. I guess I have just been taught that we dont' question God, who are we to question Him? And I'm sure it says that in other verses in the Bible, which is why it confuses me that its ok for Job to do that.

Mrs.Oz said...

Nicole, that is exactly what Piper talks and about and explains is that Job was not right in his reaction to God.
I agree with you. I think both sides of the commentary have something valid in their feeling on Elihu. I thought Piper had amazing things to say too though about what Elihu said. IT makes me wonder if his urgency comes accross as arrogance in the translation. Either that or it proves that God will use us for sure despite our sinful sides.
Some of Job seems to contradict itself. I think many months could be given to this book in study.
I do think GOd is okay with our questions as long as they don't become accusations of abandonment like Job's turned into.
Something that has kept stumping me (and I think this is the angle that some commentators come from) is in that God says in HEaven that Job is blameless. Yet, Piper argues well in the linked sermon that Elihu was right in his rebuke. It would almost seem that Job began to sin through the story. Is that the point we are perhaps to get? To respond to suffering w/o sin by saying God has left us.
There is so much to ponder.
I think the fact that we are here and we are digging and discussing is so great though we may not agree at times and we may not find all the answers now.
Hey! After all...if some of the great men of Christianity disagree on these points then, we are in good company! LOL!
Piper himself said in a post the other day that we need to test men's insites against the Word always. That is a process that will take the rest of our lives but it's a joy until we make it about who is right and who is wrong. Even the most righteous man will not be perfect in his understanding of God, and that is as it aught to be.....so..yeah!
Just happy to be in this virtual room with you all seeking and searching.

Kristi said...

I LOVE JOB! And I love this book about his "story". I do believe Job was blameless, but not perfect....in that there was nothing to blame him for, but he wasn't perfect, because his complete response and attitude towards what happend, would have been a little bit different. I don't think Elihu was perfect either, I just think he was spoke pretty wisely compared to the others and pointed out things that they didn't even consider. I respect him for holding his peace for quite some time, and I believe he did it for the right reasons, as he stated several times what those reasons were. I think some people think he was arrogant because they were reading him wrong. He came out strong because he was passionate about the way he felt. He sat all this time listening to what Job and the others were saying and held in his feelings about what was being disscussed for so long. Can you imagine just sitting and listening to things you GREATLY dissagree with and having to just hold in your feelings?! I think when he finally spoke, it just came flying out and was somewhat aggressive and people missread that for arragance.

I'm glad we all could share our views and thoughts, and I hope we always pray about our disscussions and ask the Lord to give us understanding!

Miriam said...

Nicole, just a brief comment on what you said about not questioning God...
I heard once, I think it might have been in youth group when I was a teenager, that doubt and questions aren't wrong if they lead you to seek the truth, because the truth will always strengthen your faith and bring you closer to God. Like I said before, God has big shoulders. He can take it.

Mrs.Oz said...

Miriam I liked that thought. It reminds me of us and our three children. We tell them they are welcome to ask questions and tell us their feelings as long as they do it with respect. I can just see me having to discipline my child and having them sit and start to say I was their enemy and that I had abandoned them. I would certainly want to bring them back to reconcile with me.
I'm glad does not let us stray away from a proper understanding of his love for us. He is a jealous God and we benifit from it entirely. Love those big shoulders.:)

Nicole said...

Thanks Miriam :)
I think like Mrs Oz said too, its ok to question what is going on, but when it turns to accusing God of abandoning us, that's when we are stepping over the line, and that's what I see Job doing which is why I don't see why he is made out to be this big hero when people talk about the book of Job? (not here, in general)

Yes Kristi I think you are right, Elihu had great restraint and patience to listen to the others without interrupting until he did.

Tammy said...

Nicole - I think it's the fact that, even though Job questioned God, even to the point of accusing Him, he still didn't renounce his faith, he still didn't curse God, and he later repented of his actions.

His accusations also seem to stem from frustration at his friends' speeches. An anger response basically. That doesn't excuse him, of course, but I know I often say things I don't even really mean, out of anger. And I can't even imagine what could possibly come out of my mouth if that anger came after the incredible devastation of the magnitude that Job suffered.

But I think the key thing is that he repented, and that's why he is held up as a blameless man, a faithful man. No one is perfect, and Job certainly was not. But overall, he was righteous, and he repented of his sin when it was revealed to him.

After all, King David was guilty of adultery and murder, and yet he was considered a man after God's own heart! But it was because, when confronted with his sin, he was truly remorseful. And, over the course of his life, he was truly seeking God.